Pages

Sunday, December 12, 2021

Adopting an Anti-Racist Pedagogy in Teaching and Learning

I am always trying to find the 'intersections' in which we exist and become more 'human'. In learning more about how we learn, I am able to find things that truly unify us. In addition, using a diversity, equity and inclusion lens on my own work in the practice of instructional design has aided in that introspection and reflection. But this year, I have also made a conscious effort to think about and commit to extending this individual reflection and learning collaboratively. 

My 'formal' learning journey started in March 2021 with reflecting on "Integrating Human Rights into Learning Design" (Webinar by I4PL). In May, I undertook the Universal Design for Learning (UDL) FLO course by BCcampus. In July, I attended the "The Accessible & Inclusive Design Conference 2021" by The Training, Learning, and Development Community (TLDC). Through July, Aug, Sep and Oct, I applied UDL principles in a course I was teaching at UVIC, and in November, I led a session for I4PL on UDL in the workplace and shared my experience of incorporating the UDL strategies in an Instructional Design course I was teaching at UVIC. Here's December and I just completed a FLO course with BCCampus to learn how to incorporate an anti-racist pedagogy into my teaching and consulting practice.

At the end of the FLO course, I had to share a reflection on some of the principles that might guide me in my anti-racist work and in my goal to adopt an anti-racist pedagogy in teaching and learning. This is what I shared with my peers:
------

As I begin to think about my principles for anti-racist work, it is important for me to ask myself two questions: what is motivating me to be anti-racist? And why am I doing this work?
As an educator and a learning experience designer, it is critical that I reflect on my own practice of teaching and learning. I came to the FLO course to learn more about anti-racist teaching practices and associate myself with a community that wants to make its anti-racists efforts more visible.

I am inspired by Kyoko Kishimoto who shares that “Anti-racist pedagogy is not about simply incorporating racial content into courses, curriculum, and discipline. It is also about how one teaches, even in courses where race is not the subject matter. It begins with the faculty’s awareness and self-reflection of their social position and leads to the application of this analysis not just in their teaching, but also in their discipline, research, and departmental, university, and community work. In other words, anti-racist pedagogy is an organizing effort for institutional and social change that is much broader than teaching in the classroom” Anti-racist Pedagogy: from Faculty’s Self-reflection to Organizing within and beyond the Classroom”.

Given that definition of anti-racist pedagogy, some of the principles that I think will guide me in my learning journey are:

1. I must intentionally prioritize anti-racist work by allocating the time and resources it needs. I must consciously make a choice to offer safe spaces within and outside my courses and make an ongoing commitment to engage from a strength-based perspective rather than a deficit-based perspective. I will be guided by this statement by Dr. Ibram X. Kendi who says, “Anti-racist is a verb, defined by the action one is taking.”

2. I must accept my prejudices and recognize my biases and work towards reducing/ eliminating those. This is a journey that I must undertake which will no doubt push me into an uncomfortable zone. But beyond that discomfort lies true learning and growth. Given that, being an anti-racist to me means taking an active stance and moving along the continuum of fear, learning and growth.

Created by Andrew M. Ibrahim MD, MSc, a House Staff Surgeon at the University of Michigan and Chief Medical Officer at HOK, this image is free to use, copy and share.

3. In one of the course resources, Jessica Rowland Williams highlighted how institutions can harness technology to address systemic inequities through digital learning but also spoke about various myths related to digital environments and racism. Given that, I must strive to create anti-racist equity in digital learning environments by critically evaluating the curriculum for lack of inclusiveness and by understanding the impact of tools and technology on different student groups. In doing so, I hope to raise accountability for the digital learning provider(s) to build more equitable solutions for all.

Through this course, I have found that being an anti-racist appears different for white people and people of color. I find myself questioning how I may have internalized racism (Singh, A. 2019) and how as an anti-racist, I stand united in solidarity with other people of color.

“We all have a sphere of influence. Each of us needs to find our own sources of courage so that we can begin to speak. There are many problems to address, and we cannot avoid them indefinitely. We cannot continue to be silent. We must begin to speak, knowing that words alone are insufficient. But I have seen that meaningful dialogue can lead to effective action. Change is possible.” ― Beverly Daniel Tatum

Wednesday, November 10, 2021

Universal Design for Learning (UDL) for Workplace Training and Learning with I4PL

I was recently invited by The Institute for Performance and Learning (I4PL) - Vancouver Island Chapter, to facilitate a session on "Universal Design for Learning (UDL) for Workplace Training and Learning."

The goal for the session was to identify how Universal Design for Learning (UDL) can be used to help reduce barriers and maximize learning opportunities to support the needs of diverse learner populations. In this session, I explored the use of the Universal Design for Learning (UDL) framework and the associated principles, guidelines and checkpoints as applied to workplace training and learning experiences. 

Some of the key items that I presented included:

  • My understanding of the UDL Framework including the principles, guidelines and checkpoints
  • Examples of how the principles may be applied to workplace learning initiatives
  • My understanding of the difference between UDL and other concepts including differentiated instruction, accessibility and inclusive design
  • My recommendations on how to implement UDL
  • Key resources to learn more about UDL

Resources for further reference included:

The link to the slide deck from the session is provided below:
(Google Drive link)


Friday, October 15, 2021

Celebrating Women Leaders

"Sisterhood" by Taruna Goel, Acrylics on Paper

In my career spanning over 22 years, I have worked with some amazing people. But I have to admit, in many cases, it was the men who were calling the shots at the top and the women were politely (or rudely) shown the glass ceiling. 

But a few weeks ago, I had an epiphany. 

In the last 10 years, I have been mostly working with women leaders. It hasn't been a conscious choice or even something I thought about up until a few weeks ago. On a whim, I started to write down the names of all the leaders/sponsors of my past and current projects; 80% were women. Here's a shout-out to some of these fabulous women: Diane Evans, Laura Bosneaga, Debbie Yule, Mary Kenny, Maggie Hope-Simpson, Kathy McKee, Teresa Francis, Catherine Cross, Suzanne Cirtwill, Judy Dickson, Nikki Barnett, Shannon Trites, Helene Barton, Krista Bax, Eva Schausberger, Alison Brophey, Gayle Palas and there are many others!

These women are passionate, engaged, driven, and ambitious and are taking charge to lead, manage, coach, mentor, and get the job done. One of the things that I find most inspiring about all these women is how their work is truly making a difference!

Melinda Gates said, "A woman with a voice is, by definition, a strong woman." 

I am so fortunate that I am surrounded by strong women and I know I am one of them. 

I made this painting to recognize the strong women in my life including my Mother and my sisters Bharti Birla, Chitra Bhatia nee Batra, Meenali Gulati, and Nidhi Batra!

Thursday, September 23, 2021

Critical Role of L&D

Photo by Taruna Goel 

I am facilitating an #instructionaldesign course with University of Victoria this term and 80% of the participants are from the #healthcare sector. Each of them is supporting patient care through their work in learning and development, education and training. They are the ones helping doctors, nurses, technicians and countless other staff do their very best as they battle Covid-19.

I feel so grateful for the opportunity to work with them and contribute to their learning and professional growth and development.

Talking to the participants in Week 1 made me think of how our work as learning professionals can be so gratifying. We enable people to acquire the knowledge and skills they need to excel at their work. As learning professionals, each one of us is central to enhanced organizational performance and to continuous learning and growth of employees irrespective of the sector or industry we are working in.

As learning professionals, we are all tasked with finding new ways to design our response to the #pandemic and help employees find ways to quickly adapt, learn and grow.

Never before has the critical role of L&D been so clear.

Tuesday, September 7, 2021

When "Choice Gives Voice" - Universal Design for Learning

Image by Arek Socha from Pixabay 

"CHOICE gives VOICE" - This was the phrase used by Carolee Clyne and Helena Prins as they facilitated the FLO Course I participated in on Universal Design for Learning (UDL) by BCcampus in May 2021. Three powerful words that sum up the philosophy of UDL and highlight the importance of thinking of UDL as a framework for adding more choice and enabling more voice. The credit for those words goes to Andratesha Fritzgerald, the author of "Antiracism and Universal Design for Learning: Building Expressways to Success" published by CAST
FLO UDL Digital Badge for Taruna Goel

CAST is a nonprofit education research and development organization that created the Universal Design for Learning framework and UDL Guidelines. The UDL Guidelines offer concrete suggestions that can be applied to ensure that all learners can access and participate in meaningful, challenging learning opportunities. The Guidelines are organized based on the three principles of providing multiple means of engagement, representation, and action and expression.


In July 2021, I attended the "The Accessible & Inclusive Design Conference 2021" by TLDC. The speakers at this conference covered many themes for accessibility and inclusion such as:
  • top eLearning accessibility myths,
  • who needs accessibility,
  • common areas of accessibility concern,
  • how to gain accessibility experience, and
  • how to go beyond accessibility and apply UDL principles for inclusion, etc.
But the key idea that emerged was:

"Designing for accessibility and inclusion is what makes good design." 

I was intrigued by the example shared by Gwen Navarette who compared UDL to dining in a restaurant where each customer can request substitutions within a "fixed menu". For example, one can ask for gluten-free or vegan options or ask to hold the sauces or have items on the side, etc. Similarly, when going for a buffet, one can "make" their own plate using the options available. In that sense, everyone has an equal experience even though they have different things in front of them. Unfortunately, most training, as highlighted by Gwen, is like a fixed, four-course menu where there are no considerations for substitutions thus making the experience less equitable for some diners. 
You can view the recordings of the "Accessible and Inclusive Design Conference 2021" at Recordings - Accessible and Inclusive Design Conference 2021 (thetldc.com)

It is important to state that there are also somewhat differing perspectives about UDL and how using the term, 'universal design' might end up becoming another fad or the next new trend and how it focuses on 'differentiation' rather than universality. I am an advocate for using evidence-based approaches and at this time, all the principles of UDL are not equally backed up by extensive research studies and trials. Having said that, the way I have understood UDL is as a means to reduce challenges and barriers and as a proactive way to design learning so that it is accessible by everyone rather than by building specific types of elements based on 'individual learning styles' (which by the way is a myth). Katie Novak is a UDL expert and uses a dinner party analogy to explain the difference between DI (differentiated instruction) and UDL. She explains that making individual meals for each guest is similar to DI. In this case, the host chooses what each guest will eat, despite individualising it for them. UDL, on the other hand, is like a buffet. All diners have choice and the diner drives that choice.

Over the last few months, I have been researching UDL and its application to the world of workplace learning and performance and I see several applications. As a learning designer, my objectives are to maximize learning and performance and minimize any barriers to it. Given that, I am keen to apply the principles of UDL and think more deeply about how I can respect and reflect diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) in my learning designs or any other work that I undertake. Ultimately, I'd like people to be more self-directed in their learning activities and feel empowered by what they learn. And I think UDL can support my objectives. 

Given the lens of "choice gives voice", what can you do in your learning design work to improve teaching, optimize learning and impact performance? How can you extend this idea to other practices such as recognition of prior learning and competency-based assessments?


Monday, August 16, 2021

When walls can teach - a collective experience of art

Last month, I enjoyed an immersive digital art exhibition here in Vancouver called "Imagine Van Gogh". The exhibit focused on the collective experience of art.

Taruna Goel Photography | Facebook
The website describes it as: 

"Imagine Van Gogh, is an exhibition where one can admire The Starry Night, Irises and Sunflowers, or be drawn into the intimacy of his Bedroom in Arles. An experience that brings viewers to the heart of its images, Imagine Van Gogh is accompanied by the music of the great composers Saint-Saëns, Mozart, Bach, Delibes and Satie."

It was a riot for all the senses. More than 200 of Van Gogh’s paintings were projected on huge panels and curated based on color, feelings and his life journey. The digital art was synchronized to classical music thus adding a lot of emotional layers and depth to the experience. The exhibition used warping techniques to project the artwork in a mesmerizing and intimate way. As a viewer, I felt like I was a part of the art. 

"The choice of images, the way they are positioned, their rhythm and their association with the music all compose this original creation conceived by Annabelle Mauger and developed with Julien Baron." - Imagine Van Gogh

Taruna Goel Photography | Facebook

There was also what they called a "pedagogical room" that documented Van Gogh's journey in the written form. The pedagogical room acted like the primer for the actual experience and the room and the exhibit became the "third space" offering the opportunity to learn together. 

Taruna Goel Photography | Facebook

Rotana Ty describes the emergence of this new work and learning place in his article, "Workplace Futures - On Collective Digital Art Experiences" and shares how "The workplace is evolving as the places we work, play, live and learn. They are consumerized, fragmented and tend to adapt to our work and learning needs."

I have often heard the phrase, 'Walls can Teach" in the K-12 environment. But this immersive exhibition took that to another place altogether!

Tuesday, June 8, 2021

Assessment and Evaluation in Learning

In the area of learning and development, assessment is often confused with evaluation. So, what is the difference? As a learning designer, how can you leverage assessment and evaluation? 

Image by Anemone123 from Pixabay 

Assessment is used to take a closer look at the progress of learners and to collect information and evidence about their learning and the teaching process. This includes engaging in an ongoing dialog to gather inputs and feedback from the learners and providing them with critical feedback that is helpful towards meeting the learning outcomes. In that sense, the primary purpose of assessment is to improve both the learners’ learning as well as the facilitator’s teaching. 

Assessment is:

an ongoing, systematic process of gathering information using established standards to make a determination about a participant’s learning or to inform the instruction. The purpose of assessment is to improve the quality of learning.

Evaluation is used to make a judgement or put a value to the learning and the achievement of the outcomes based on established criteria. Once we provide value to the learning, we can then make key decisions about providing inputs and feedback to improve performance or consider other steps such as providing additional inputs and resources to further enrich the learning. 

Evaluation is:

the process of judging or putting a value on a learning process using established criteria to identify the degree to which knowledge or skill has been gained and applied. The purpose of an evaluation is to judge the quality of learning.

While the definitions highlight the differences between assessment and evaluation, I also see some similarities between the two. Both require the use of established standards or criteria, the application of specific method(s) of observation and measurement, and the use of the collected information to aid in decision-making. In addition, based on my experience as an adult educator, I see the purpose of assessment and evaluation as follows:

1. To communicate

I use assessment and evaluation as a bridge between the participant and the facilitator. It is a way for the participant to communicate their learning and progress to the facilitator and for the facilitator to share inputs and feedback on their learning. With this purpose in mind, a facilitator does not need to assign a mark or a grade for such a communication to take place. However, there is a need to be clear and transparent about the learning outcomes and assessment criteria and a need to be diligent about providing timely and qualitative feedback on the participant’s learning with respect to these outcomes and criteria.

2. To guide workplace performance

What we choose to evaluate tells our participants about what we value. Therefore, I use evaluation as a tool to guide workplace performance and align learning to business outcomes. The choice of learning outcomes, assessment criteria, and evaluation standards informs the participants about what is valued and expected at the workplace. It demonstrates the importance and value of the task (that is being taught) and how performing the task effectively is critical to the success of the participant and of the business.

3. To encourage continuous learning

I see the core purpose of assessment and evaluation to aid in continuous learning for both the participants as well as the facilitators. When we share information about a participant’s progress with the participant and with other stakeholders, it is a way to not only view the progress from a learning perspective but also to identify areas that require further work for both the participant and the process. Similarly, inputs and feedback from the participant to the facilitator aids in improving the teaching process and the facilitator’s skill in creating the right environment for learning. An effective assessment and evaluation approach needs to answer the question, “What needs to be improved?”


"Ultimately, assessment defines what students regard as important, how they spend their time, and how they come to see themselves as students and then as graduates. Because students take their cues about what is important from what is being assessed, if you want to change student learning, then change the method of assessment.” (Lombardi, M. (2008), p. 2)


References:

Fenwick, T. J. & Parsons, J. (2009). The art of evaluation. A resource for educators and trainers. 2nd Edition. Toronto: Ontario. Thompson Educational Publishing

Lombardi, M. (2008). Making the grade: The role of assessment in authentic learning. Retrieved October 15, 2018, from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4041495/

Yambi, Tomas. (2020). Assessment and Evaluation in Education. (researchgate.net)

 


Monday, April 5, 2021

What's In a Name?

Image by John Hain from Pixabay

" Identity is not just who you are currently, but who you are called to be. "
- Kris Wolfe 

My name is Taruna.

In Sanskrit, Taruna means “the ever young”. My name was given to me by my parents. In Hinduism, there is a tradition to select names that have some auspicious meaning and many names are derived directly or indirectly from the names of the Gods and Goddesses. There are also elaborate ceremonies and rituals that reinforce the significance of one's name. Although I don't claim to be a religious person, my name truly calls to me. I have a deep spiritual connection to my name and every time I hear it, it is a call to my true, authentic self.

When I moved to Canada in 2011, I started introducing myself as Taruna Goel. As I shook hands, I observed that people felt uncomfortable saying my name out aloud. Perhaps they didn’t hear my name correctly or they thought they may not be able to pronounce it correctly. Their discomfort soon turned into distance. I realized that I wasn't being offered an opportunity to participate because people couldn't say my name or ask me to join the conversation. Was no one interested in my opinion, I asked myself. At some point, I also felt 'forgettable' because I hardly ever heard my name outside of family and friends. I felt “unbelonged”.

So, I started introducing myself as TG (my initials).

Changing one’s name to fit in happens more often than some may think, especially on resumés. According to research from Stanford University and the University of Toronto, nearly half of black and Asian job applicants who altered their resumés did so by changing the presentation of their name in an effort to erase any racial cues. (The researchers found those who “whitened” their resumés were twice as likely to get call-backs for an interview, compared to those who left ethnic details intact.) as cited in Why getting a name right matters - BBC Worklife

Like many others, introducing myself as TG was a way to make myself “fit”. There was some degree of surprise on hearing two letters instead of a name but the handshakes were certainly firmer. People felt more confident about talking to me. I had many enthusiastic conversations with everyone in the room and was introduced to others.

I thought I might feel better; now that I ‘belonged’. But I didn’t. I felt as unbelonged as I did before.
 
"Name-related troubles are not trivial. Names associated with particular ethnoracial, linguistic or religious identities can hinder immigrants’ integration in terms of securing higher level employment, finding housing, accessing services, making friends and developing a sense of belonging in Canadian society. Even people born in Canada but who have “ethnic” names report cases of discrimination based on assumed links between their names and the hierarchy of ethnoracial categories which influence social power. These are not individual experiences; two studies done in Canada demonstrated systematic hiring discrimination based on applicants’ names. (Eid 2012; Oreopoulos and Dechief 2011)" says Karen Pennesi in Diversity and Names: Designing for Belonging.

Karen Pennesi is a professor at Western University, and she is also the Vice President of the Canadian Society for the Study of Names. She studies how individual’s names are shaped, perceived, and often judged by personal evaluation, familial values, and societal mores (her project is here, and on Facebook here). Karen says, that “As symbols of identity, names influence self-perception and the unequal treatment of others. Names are especially important in issues related to immigration, social integration and belonging.”

I have often pondered about the reasons for feeling the way I did about reducing my name to my initials. I have come to realize that we truly belong only when we bring our entire, authentic selves. We can’t remove the uncomfortable parts of us and try to belong. I also realized that true belonging requires effort and practice – equally - by both parties. I need to make an effort to belong and others need to do the same too.

So, I have started introducing myself again as Taruna Goel. I put a conscious effort into my introduction. When I see that look on their face, I repeat my name – again and yet again – without hesitation. I spell my name when I can and tell the meaning of my name to make my introduction more memorable. I take an initiative to join the conversation when others are too afraid to pronounce my name and use that as an opportunity to introduce myself.

Names are the very foundation of linguistic communication. A world without them would be a very confusing place, says linguist Jennifer Dorman, senior instructional designer at the language-learning application Babbel. “Linguistically speaking, a name is what we use to refer to a person and provides a connection to someone’s unique identity,” says Dorman as cited in It’s Well Past Time White People Learn How To Say Everyone’s Names Correctly

"...names hold powerful psychological connections with how we see ourselves. In a world where identity is key and multifaceted, it makes sense then that names are, too." - Kavya Makam in The Name Game

But it is not all psychological and social. There is physiological evidence about the importance of hearing one's name too.

A scientific study published in Brain Research provides evidence that hearing one’s own name has unique brain functioning activation specific to one’s own name in relation to the names of others. Using functional magnetic resonance imaging, brain activation patterns were examined in response to hearing one’s own first name in contrast to hearing the names of others. There are several regions in the left hemisphere that show greater activation to one’s own name, including middle frontal cortex, middle and superior temporal cortex, and cuneus.

So, to light up my brain, I am making the transition to introducing myself as Taruna Goel instead of TG. But all my friends and clients can always call me TG after they have been duly assessed for making a genuine effort in being able to say my name out loud correctly 😊

PS: The study of names is called onomastics or onomatology. Onomastics covers the naming of all things, including place names (toponyms) and personal names (anthroponyms)

References and other readings:

Tuesday, March 2, 2021

Integrating Human Rights into Learning Design

Yesterday, I attended a very informative webinar by The Institute for Performance and Learning on "Integrating Human Rights into Learning Design". It was led by Sharon Thira at BC'sOffice of the Human Rights Commissioner @humanrights4bc

During her talk, Sharon outlined the scope of human rights and how they intersect with learning and curricula. She specifically spoke about decolonizing curriculum design and highlighted design approaches including: 

- Kirkness & Barnhardt 4Rs

- Respectful Design 

- Trauma-informed Design

She spoke about the elements of a Human Rights-Based Approach (HRBA) approach using the acronym: PANEL


P articipation
A ccountability
N on-discrimination and equality
E mpowerment and
L inkages to the legal human rights framework 

At the end of the webinar, I realized that no development work is power-neutral. It is the lack of power that leads to discrimination and exclusion. The session made me ponder about what I am doing to make sure that L&D programs are equally accessible to everyone across the board. I also thought about how I could apply the human rights-based approach to elevate the skills of people in a more equitable manner and make things more inclusive.

Related reading:

 


Monday, January 11, 2021

The Mentoring One - Women Talking About Learning Podcast

"Sisterhood" - by Taruna Goel (Acrylics on Paper, 2019)

"The Mentoring One" - Andréa Watts and I recorded a podcast! Thanks to Andrew Jacobs and WTAL_Podcast who brought us together for this episode of "Women Talking About Learning" where we talked about all things mentoring.

I am passionate about #volunteering and #mentoring and hopefully, this episode captures my enthusiasm. Andréa's experience and her insights made for such an engaged and easy conversation. Among other things, we discussed what it means to be a mentor, mentoring as a two-way learning relationship, types of mentoring, the difference between coaching and mentoring and the value of trust and self-directed learning in mentoring. I even included a story from the Mahabharata (an Indian epic).

Since it was released last week, my friends and colleagues have shared their thoughts and insights as comments on my LinkedIn announcement post. It has been a wonderful discussion thus far. But in all of this, one question that stood out for me was asked by Katharina Hill. She sent me a message and asked, "What have you learned from recording this episode?"

There are several things that I have learned from recording this podcast, from Andréa, Andrew and the listeners, but also from the process itself.

 ·        Every person offers an opportunity to make a deep connection. In our lives, we meet many different people. But it is a rarity when you meet a person and the first conversation feels like you are talking to a friend. There was a feeling of harmony when Andréa and I spoke for the very first time. With how 2020 went, I had lost hope in this miracle and joy of connection. But Andréa assured me that it still exists. She and I have had different life experiences but we both care about similar things including our quiet time with nature, the pauses in each conversation and our shared passion of helping others discover themselves by being a partner in their journey. I am looking forward to deepening this connection and exchanging notes, experiences, and insights with Andréa on a range of other topics.

·        Connectors are the conduit for knowledge exchange across networks. We were brought together by Andrew who was the spark to get this engine going. Andrew is spending many volunteer, unpaid hours to bring people together and record, edit and publish the podcast. He has connected me with Andréa and with all the listeners of the Women Talking About Learning. He gives me yet one more reason to value the 'connectors' in my life. He doesn't interview the women; he just brings them together and gives them the space to talk. I have learned from him how 'trusting a process' (rather than driving or controlling a process) can sometimes be so liberating and magical. Andrew values diversity, collaboration and conversation and we clearly need more Andrews in this world.

·        Connections can happen anytime and take you anywhere. Although Andréa, Andrew and I come from different backgrounds, expertise, experiences and even continents, a series of unplanned and unrelated events brought us all together. Sometimes, these serendipitous connections make a paragraph in your story; at other times they become a chapter. Either way, something gets added to your life and I feel the same way about recording this podcast. I have already taken the first step in a positive direction. One can never know where this might take me and I am looking forward to it in great anticipation.

Thanks for the question, Katharina. I am so glad you asked. You made me reflect and made this process even more joyful and meaningful than it already was.

By giving me a chance to talk about mentoring and why it is important to me, this podcast episode has given me a fresh perspective and the energy to keep it going.

If you haven't had a chance to listen, check out the episode here and let me know what you think. 

And while you are there, there are many other conversations worth a listen including the Lockdown one, the Boss one, the Misogyny one, and the Imposter Syndrome one, etc.